Lead With That: What “Schitt’s Creek” Teaches Us About Self-Awareness in Leadership

Interview Transcript

Ren:

And welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership’s happening, and what’s happening with leadership.

Pew, pew, pew, pew. It’s still manager madness, Allison. Although the championship is over, we’ve got our final winner, but we’re still slogging through where we’re headed. And one by one we’re discussing public figures, some fictional, some real, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

Welcome back to the Rosebud Motel, everyone, in Schitt’s Creek. Yes, we are talking about Schitt’s Creek and the Roses. Now, it took me a while to get into the show, but when I did, we really couldn’t stop watching it. It’s so heartwarming, so funny, so unique. So Allison and I are going to give it a shot at unpacking the quirks and strategies and surprising wisdom behind the leadership styles of so many of these beloved characters, not only through the lenses of the Roses — Johnny, Moira, David, and Alexis — but also some of those other amazing characters in the Creek, looking at their unique approaches to leadership, and what we might learn about some of those weird and awesome people.

Now, Johnny Rose, whether he’s the former video store tycoon or a small town entrepreneur, his journey from riches to rags reveals a steadfast leader who values integrity and resilience and family, I think. Or Moira, with her eccentric matriarchy and a penchant for wigs and the flair for the dramatic, her style might just look like theatrics and no substance, but really Moira is a leader of heart, of expectation, of high standards, I think. Even her ability to rally the town for the musical and her stint on the town council shows how her leadership can inspire through vision and action.

And then we’ve got the awesome kids, David, with his eye for detail and his unwavering standards, maybe even exemplifying some transformational leadership. And don’t forget a little bit Alexis, and her quirky “entrepreneurialness” and her almost driven target on the goal, and maybe not being distracted, for ill or for better and anything else. But it’s not just the Roses, characters like Stevie Budd, characters like Jocelyn and Roland and Ronnie. We’re going to talk about a lot of them and explore some of that wealth of leadership wisdom.

So welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what do you think of roadside motels? And when’s the last time you stayed at a Motel 6?

Allison:

Well, I stayed at a roadside … Let me restart that, because I kind of stayed at a roadside motel when I was in my 20s. I can’t remember how old I was, but I was driving from Colorado to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for my sister’s wedding, by myself with my dog in tow. And no plan, really. I just figured I’d drive until I got tired, which in retrospect, looking back, that was not the smartest decision.

I found a hotel, once I got sleepy, pulled off to the gas station first where somebody approached my car. It was 1:00 in the morning. It was not a super safe feeling. And I stayed at a roadside motel. And I say that I kind of did because I went into the room and just had that sinking gut feeling of, “This doesn’t feel right.” And so I slept in my car, and the next morning got up and used the shower and left.

Ren:

Oh, wow, I don’t know if the Roses … I don’t know if Johnny would be thrilled that that would be your experience of the Rosebud Motel.

Allison:

No, I don’t think so. What about you, when’s the last time you stayed at a roadside motel?

Ren:

Man, I don’t know if I’ve ever stayed at a roadside motel. Especially, I can’t even, recently, I can’t think of it. There might be something of Moira in me, or maybe the general Roses, where it’s like now that I’ve earned my way and been able to see and access some finer things, maybe I um, I’m not like, “Let me stay at an Econo Lodge.” I think maybe I stayed at a Red Roof Inn, yes, probably, or a Best Western in my early 20s.

But a Best Western’s like a weird motel, hotel vibe, especially where we went, which was in Canada, and they have an amusement park area. Really fitting, because the show was filmed in Canada. So I think that’s super interesting. And that’s where the motel is, in Toronto or Ontario. But anyway, that’s probably my answer. But despite our trips to and from hotels or motels, maybe when you think about the Rosebud Motel, what would you be excited about if you had to work there, and what might you be worried about?

Allison:

Well, it depends at what point I’m working there, who’s in charge, has Mr. Rose taken over yet?

Ren:

Well, yes. Yes, he has. He, and well, he’s in the midst of partnering with Stevie, so it’s not like the “well-ironed machine” that it turns into in Season 6. Think like Season 2.

Allison:

Okay. Oh, gosh. I think I would be excited because there’s enthusiasm. There’s enthusiasm, well, with Johnny. I don’t know about Stevie being enthusiastic; however, her historical knowledge of not only the motel but the area, partnered with Johnny’s business savviness and enthusiasm, and maybe even Alexis’s ability to brand, it’s almost like it has a startup vibe to it. That would be fun.

Concerns, I mean, “Do we have it in us to turn this place around?” If you’ll remember, it’s barely operable, right? Some of the showers don’t work. There’s leaks. You can hear through the walls. They don’t have enough towels half the time. The location maybe is not ideal for traffic that you might need for a motel to thrive. What about you, what’d make you excited?

Ren:

Yeah, that’s interesting. I like Johnny, I find him really interesting. I think it’d be funny to watch he and Stevie interact. And I think it’d be funny to have Stevie as my boss, too, because she seems pretty chill. And even though I know she stepped more into her role as leader, I think being around those 2 and then just some of the characters … I mean front row seats to the mayor on the regular.

So at least if you work there, you know you’re in the political know-how of Schitt’s Creek. I’d probably be worried that … man, yeah, I like working for real buttoned-up organizations, and things where it’s tight and it’s interesting, and where I don’t have to be a plumber and also something else.

And so, I probably wouldn’t be super thrilled at having many, many job duties outside of my job description, but maybe that’s some of what we can talk about in the context of the work and things like that. But before we go into the Roses though, I’d love to talk more around some of the other weird characters in that world. And so, when you think about people outside of the core family, what’s one of the first people that pops up for you?

Allison:

Oh, either Jocelyn or Roland. I think Jocelyn, I suppose, is … I mean she eventually becomes more of a primary character, but she’s not in the family, and there’s something very sweet and wholesome about her, but also very direct. And I like how she … to me she models that you can be kind and direct at the same time. I don’t know if you will remember, there’s an episode … and I don’t remember why, I think Moira wanted to get a haircut or something like that. So Jocelyn took her to her hairstylist who gave her the same exact haircut as Jocelyn, and it was so funny.

And I pulled out a quote from Jocelyn because I wanted to get it right. And what she says is, “I know you hate your hair, Moira, almost as much as you hate this town, but there’s a possibility you could be here a really long time. And if I could offer you something, the people here are just trying to help you, and there’ll be days when your wigs need conditioning, or you’ll need a ‘fashiony’ blouse because you shrank it in the dryer and you’ll have to go to Janine’s, or you’ll get a shirt at the Blouse Barn, just like the rest of us. And I would hate for that day to catch you by surprise.” So there’s something very kind about how she’s just very direct and helpful at the same time.

Ren:

Yeah, I think that’s something really interesting about Jocelyn, and maybe it’s the way that they wrote her, at least that she was able to manage her … like if we’re taking her as a real person, she was able to manage her emotions in a way where she could be totally honest and totally kind, I think. It’s like we talk about in the classroom, you don’t have to just be mean if you want to be honest.

And in order to be nice, you don’t have to lie to people. And I think, for a lot of the time, especially in the beginning of the show, I was kind of reading Jocelyn as someone who’s, like the Roses are always throwing barbs at them. Like the Schitts and Roland and Jocelyn, like when they go over to their house for the first time or the second time or whenever they’re there, they’re trying to be high context funny things.

And I think Jocelyn’s super smart, but she picks up on it. But maybe she’s so grounded in her, like what she’s there to do, which is love her family, love her community, that she’s not bothered by it. But then able to be honest without … like she wasn’t yelling at Moira, she was just kind of saying, “Hey, heads up, dude, a word for the wise, manage yourself a little bit better.” So yeah, something really about her that I think grows on me. She’s really charming and wise, I think.

Allison:

Yeah, I agree, she is wise. And I’m sure you’ve heard leaders in our worlds say this, if not our clients, but elsewhere, leaders around the globe, especially in the US, will say something like, “Well, I tell it like it is, and I’m very direct.” And a lot of times that’s judgment, it turns into judgmental comments, and that’s not necessarily “telling it like it is.” I would prefer Jocelyn’s style, like, “You are here,” to your point, she is very grounded and she says it in the kindest way, “You’re here, you’re going to be here. People are trying to help you, so let them,” is essentially what she’s saying. So I appreciate that level of candor, groundedness, and honesty and support. It’s very supportive, too.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think that’s something about her character, and I love what you’re citing, because so often I think there’s this tension between being accepted as who you are, or people saying, “Take it or leave it.” And then using that as an excuse for being a total a-hole. And I think a lot of leaders do that, like, “Oh, I’m not conflict averse” or, “I’m just a rough personality; that’s just the way it is.” And I think there’s probably a polarity that needs to be managed, like a both/and: yeah, you’re allowed to be a hard-ass, but also you can’t just be that thing because sooner or later that well runs dry.

And so, I like that kind of space where the both/and. I think Jocelyn really speaks to that well, like just a lot of care and a recognition of, “Maybe certain things aren’t perfect, but we’re here together. We’re here working towards something.” The strong and connected teams. I think she might be the best example of the kind of character that can keep a team together and help them ride through the interesting waves of high-character people.

Allison:

And I agree with you, and earlier you’d mentioned the possibility of having Stevie as your boss might be okay with you. So say more about that.

Ren:

Well I find Stevie’s absolutely one of my favorite characters, and I think especially, too, in her exchanges with David early in their relationship. Maybe her communication style, for instance, may be less forward than Jocelyn, probably to do with less wisdom or exchanges with people. But the conversation about the wine after David and her first get together, and she’s like, “I thought you like white wine.” He goes, “Oh, yeah, sometimes, or I’ll do red or maybe even a rosé.” And I think it’s funny that Stevie and I would probably be able to say a lot with not a lot of words.

Allison:

Yes, and I appreciate … I want to get back to what you said about the wine in a second, but what you said about Stevie is, to me, I find her to be so hilarious, and she’s very dry. I know not a lot of people relate to that type of humor, but she is very, very dry. And there’s something for me around, I think one of my values too is that there’s joy and fun in the work that I do. I mean, we spend a lot of time at work, and I think it would be fun to work with her.

And she just has the best one-liners. And she says to David at one point, “What you lack in most things, you make up for in unsubstantiated confidence.” Which is just, she’s got the best one-liners. And their back-and-forth is so comical, and it works. And I understand that not everybody relates to that type of humor, and some people find it to be mean, but I think she’s very funny.

Ren:

Well, and I think she’s an interesting example of what we were just talking about, about that both/and of maintaining who you are and also growing. I think Stevie maybe has one of the largest arcs in the show. And it’s really interesting to see her start to step into herself. And I know we’re going to talk about Johnny later, but something about his leadership style is that he saw something inside of Stevie that Stevie didn’t. And by the end of the show, Stevie saw more in her herself than she ever could have imagined.

And sometimes I think that’s a leader’s job is, you don’t have to be mean to people, but you could recognize something inside of them and let that create an environment for that to grow. And so I think Stevie’s dry and irreverent, and I mean if you can’t take it, she could maybe look and sound a little bit mean, but then I think she really changed. I think she changed in recognition of her own skills and ability. I think she changed in maybe still being funny, but not always at the expense of others.

Allison:

Yes. Yes, agreed. And there are some really tender moments with her where she, at the start, might seem cold or aloof, or maybe detached even. And there’s some moments where they just pan to her, and you can see how proud she is of the motel and of the work that she’s done. And maybe that happens a little later in the series, but you are right, I think there is a serious growth with her, where at the beginning she’s a little bit in over her head, and she doesn’t really care that much. And then I believe it’s maybe her aunt who dies, or her great aunt, and gives her the motel. I don’t know if you remember that. And she’s feeling incredibly overwhelmed.

And then the family sort of steps in to help her. And when they have the new sign on the motel, I don’t know if you remember that. They put the sign up and they surprise her, and she doesn’t really say much, or she might’ve made a snide comment, I can’t remember, a Stevie comment. But then they pan back to her, and she’s standing there by herself, and she’s a little teary-eyed and it’s very sentimental. And there’s a lot of pride. You feel a lot of pride in what she’s doing as really a business owner.

Ren:

Yeah, I reflect on her fondly. And I think there’s something about those characters that they give the Schitt’s Creek vibe to, or like, “Hey, Roses, there’s other ways to look, and maybe this place, this little corner of the world is really a microcosm of the world.” And I think they did such a good job of that. And there’s something so, too, like normal and engaging about these human experiences, but not overly dramatic. And as you were talking about Stevie, sometimes too, I feel like she doesn’t play the Jim Halpert role for us, where at some point she can kind of be our point of view, just a normal person in a small town who sees these people as kind of like, “I’m not really invested in making you all feel worse than you already do,” but kind of looks past the camera and thinks, “Is anyone else seeing this?”

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And so there’s something around her kind of self-awareness I think, too, that leads to her being an effective leader. Because I think part of her, you allude to, when it’s formal that the hotel’s going to be hers, and before she starts to partner with Johnny, I think there’s that fear of, “Can I do this?” And sometimes it’s almost like the awareness of what we don’t know is a sign of wisdom. And luckily for her, she was able to push past her fear. I know it can be paralyzing for some. But yeah, Stevie’s one of my favorites.

Allison:

Yeah, me too. And I want to come back to something you said a moment ago, which was the scene where they’re shopping for wine and David says, “I like the wine and not the label.” We are recording during Pride month. So happy Pride. I don’t know if this will come out this month, we’ll see. And it’s a reminder that you can support and celebrate the queer community in other months as well.

However, the show does a really fantastic job of showing how the queer community can exist without sensationalizing it. There is no homophobia in that show at all. Digging a little bit further, one of the best examples is the one that you brought up where David said he likes the wine and not the label. And that one-liner is really indicative of the inclusion of people from all walks of life in the show, including the kinds of folks that live in that town specifically, too.

So when David and Patrick start their relationship, that show models so beautifully a relationship between 2 people who really care about each other and love each other, without focusing on the label, and without sensationalizing it so much to the point where there’s violence and trauma, and it just in some ways shows what’s possible. And I think that’s something that’s very meaningful as well.

Ren:

Yeah, there was always … when I was watching the show too, and I think being conditioned by modern media and the tension, because being I think storytellers and professionals in this space, too, I think we start to identify arcs and we’re like, “Okay, this is going to be a conflict area. You’ve got to write a story to create conflict.” And I was always kind of dreading the inevitable gay conflict in the show, and I was so grateful that it was just normal people stuff still.

I mean, my favorite part … and I think it liberated them a lot. I love when they’re getting married and Patrick hires the masseuse for David, and they’re getting back together, he’s like, “Man, that was a really great massage, and I’ve never had one of those before. And that’s really wonderful.” I think, if you know you know. And Patrick’s like, “I don’t understand.” And he goes, “Well, what do you mean?” And then he tried to replay his mind back through it. But it was interesting, that wasn’t a derailer and it wasn’t one of those things, like I think in other spaces, where they were trying to lean into hyper-sensationalism.

Allison:

That is it.

Ren:

It just seemed like 2 people. And maybe, again, something that I love about this show, is 2 people who love each other, who accept each other and are so accepting of themselves that the only thing that they can really bemoan about that is just kind of the weird miscommunication, but no challenge on their partnership or their care for each other or anything like that. Yeah, they’re a fun combo.

Allison:

Yeah. And so many hilarious moments between them, and probably between everybody, that we could talk about. Another funny part, again, just how different the 2 of them are, Patrick and David, something that comes to mind where, it’s probably in the last season, where Patrick goes to get a spray tan and uses David’s punch card or whatever it is. And he comes back and he’s bright orange.

I don’t know if you remember that, but it’s just so funny how they navigate each other. It’s hilarious. And there’s even a really nice moment, I think, that can speak to people who are in the process of identifying their sexuality, where Patrick … I think there’s, and I’m not remembering what season it is, but they have their business and there’s a customer who comes in who it appears might be sort of hitting on Patrick.

And David said, “Why don’t you go out with him and just see. I know this is your first relationship with another man.” I’m paraphrasing. And it’s just a really nice, tender, accepting moment. And of course he ends up not going out with the guy, and it’s all romance and lovely between David and Patrick. But it’s just a nice reminder of things not being black and white I suppose.

Ren:

Yeah. And if you’re foreign to that culture, I could imagine someone standing on the periphery and be like, “Wait a minute, why would he suggest that he do that?” And I just think from an inclusive standpoint, if you’re listening, and you observe this kind of experience from the periphery, or you start to see someone on a show like this, or maybe you even witness a colleague or you hear … I think there’s space for, if you’ve got the emotional cachet in a relationship, to be like, “Hey, help me understand.” Because I don’t know if I would say to my wife, “Hey, go sleep with that other dude, and then we’ll just feel it out and then you can come back in.” And again, it’s just like this acceptance.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And that’s so interesting, and if any of you are paying attention, it’s a big theme for me in this chapter of my life. But it’s really interesting. I think something about Patrick and his style and work, too, is that supportive, collaborative, accepting … like, just as he was getting to know David, and they’re getting the business license, and his availability and his helpfulness, it just seemed like something about “the best ability is availability,” an old sports adage. And I think Patrick’s kind of steady, he’s always there. And sometimes as a leader you can be steady, you can always be there, and it can make a difference.

Allison:

Yes, absolutely. Well, let’s jump people dramatically. What’s your take on Roland?

Ren:

On Roland. Yeah, right, talk about some male energies and their difference. Roland. I think, too, there’s something about him and Jocelyn where they both, they had to write them in a certain way where they were sort of obtuse.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

But I’d say Roland’s unconventional existence … man, I guess I’m just going to hit on this theme … maybe leaders, what I’m recognizing in Schitt’s Creek is that Roland was so okay with himself, that he was just always himself. And again, someone who was driven by family and community. He loved his town, and what the town stood for, regardless of what anyone else thought about it or badmouthed it, that was his town with his people. And there’s something about that recognition and acceptance of what’s yours, and how he is himself, that I think I’m spinning around. Yeah, he’s bumbling, but I like that about him.

Allison:

Yeah, you always know what’s on his mind.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

You always know he’s going to be very honest and sometimes very blunt. You’ll probably always know where you stand with him, and he shows that frequently in the show. And to your earlier point, there’s something about him and Jocelyn … and of course he’s the mayor, so there’s something about him and Jocelyn together that understand the political landscape of the community and how things work.

And there’s so many examples of Johnny wanting to do something and Roland sort of laughs at him, or maybe says something crass, and it’s just like, “That’s just not how it works here. It’s not how it works.” But perhaps the job, the only job that he takes seriously, it is when he becomes a father. So he tries to help out at the motel, and he’s not helpful at all. And then when he becomes a father, we sort of see an arc with him, too, where he really grows into that role and takes it very seriously.

Ren:

Well, yeah … I’m glad you brought that up because I forgot that he has an arc too, because remember, Mutt is his other son. And so it’s like his first relationship or his first child. And then you think about the things that, “I want to do different this time around.” And it’s interesting around you as leader or you as listener or you as parent or partner out there, anyone, this idea of like, “Well, this time around it’s going to be different.”

And I think there’s something interesting about letting yourself grow and trying new things, but I know that expectation and comparison are the mother and father of all pain. And so as you look backward and forward in your life, maybe comparing yourself is not necessarily the best, but grounding yourself in who you want to be and how you want to show up. I think Roland is a great example of that, who you want to be and how you want to show up.

And I think you just mentioned too, kind of like that Michael Scott moment where he may not be the most perfect person, but he knows his people and he knows his town, and he’s like, “Hey, Johnny, you can’t do that here because it’s not going to work. Trust me. Follow my lead.” And Johnny’s like, “I used to be a billionaire, a millionaire. What do you mean follow your lead?” So it’s really interesting, that awareness.

Allison:

Right. And it’s a perfect translation to the workplace, that arc, because I tell people a lot that, especially when you’re starting a new role or a new job in a new company, you need to understand the landscape and how the work gets done first. Yes, your skillsets are important, of course, and how the work gets done is perhaps the most important thing.

But I think a lot of the characters in the show, predominantly the Rose family, model having to make mistakes or failures that were not anticipated, and how to get back up from them. So I think the Rose family as a family is a good example of that. And then individually they all have their own routes to take in terms of starting over from scratch.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think before maybe we dive fully on the Roses, I want to give Ronnie a shout-out.

Allison:

Ronnie, yes.

Ren:

I think her character is another really interesting idea of this kind of straightforward existence. And Ronnie maybe is another aspect of us, like a normal person in a small town looking at all of this and just being like, “Okay, can we just be real pragmatic about everything?” And I think there’s something that, on the continuum, all the kind of leadership out there, the people who are really comfortable with change, and people who really want to maintain the way it used to be, and then this sort of Ronnie who’s tapped into doing what needs to work, when it needs to work. And so she cuts through the drama, I think, cuts through the politics, and is another example of a grounded person. So I just wanted to give a shout-out to Ronnie.

Allison:

Yes, shout out to Ronnie, and an apology, Mutt. I’m sorry to you, Mutt, I forgot that you were the son of Jocelyn and Roland. But back to Ronnie. You’re right, she is very pragmatic, especially when it, I mean when it comes to all things, when it comes to the community of Schitt’s Creek, and when it comes to the choir that they put together and how they assign roles. I remember an episode where Moira really wants a solo, I think, and she’s trying to just rely on her reputation of being in the acting world. And it’s Ronnie who says a version of, “You have to audition like the rest of us.” There’s some sort of fairness and practicality about her that she brings to the community as well.

Ren:

Yeah. [singing] Oh, Danny Boy ..

Allison:

Yes. This is now the second episode where we’ve got you singing. This is great.

Ren:

Yeah, well, I mean, it’s going to happen. I think it’s going to happen. Yeah, I just love that they continue to put themselves into these interesting positions. And maybe there’s so many things about the Roses that I find charming. And maybe it’s fitting to start with Moira, because I don’t know if she has as … she might have the most limited arc in the show, I think, but maybe she was the most self-aware, and so she had less distance to travel. I don’t know, what do you think?

Allison:

Well, I think there was some growth with her, because she was on a soap opera. That was her claim to fame, where she was on a popular soap opera. And then she gets to Schitt’s Creek and nobody knows who she is, and eventually she has to start back from square one, where she’s in a movie called the, what is it called? “The Crows Have Eyes,” I think, or something.

Ren:

Yeah, “The Crows Have Eyes III,” it’s the third one.

Allison:

And the location is somewhere in the middle of nowhere. She basically stays in a trailer, where she’s had been used to a very different lifestyle. So there is a sort of starting over from scratch for her that happens, in just a much different way. The one thing that we can appreciate about her is that she stays very true to her brand. So if we talk about personal branding, she’s got that down. I mean, they sort of all do, if you think about it, but she really does. She really, really does. And while she is sort of opposed to working in the motel, she does get a couple of wake-up calls where she has to help out. I don’t know if you’ll remember when she has to work at the front desk and there’s an older gentleman who comes in, and she thinks that she kills him. It’s just the whole … do you remember that episode?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

So, I think she has some wake-up calls that are maybe a little bit more subtle, because she stays the path of the acting realm but has to learn how to start over again and rebuild her reputation.

Ren:

Yeah, I think you say something that I resonate with, is the idea that she never lost sight of her brand. And so, of all of the things, now granted the Schitts were able to — or the Roses, I keep calling them Schitts — the Roses were able to keep all of their clothing, which is their only bastion of their wealth. But Moira was committed, wigs and clothes and all. She never, never, never ended up buying a blouse from the Blouse Barn. She always had her thing. And so I think Moira might be a good example, for me, of someone who recognizes perpetual growth.

I think Moira, we learn about her that she was … before all the money came and they really lost sight of who they were, and she’s tried to be motherly, and you could see that growing with her kids. And David, I think in her relationship with David a little bit better, but … and then when she goes to the graduation with the Jazzagals for Alexis. And I can see her maybe, she reminds me of a lot of the CEOs that I get to meet and work with, where they’re at the tippy top of the mountain and they kind of lost sight of how long and how far and how challenging the path was. But when they get up there, they remember that people really matter to them.

And I think there’s moments where we see Moira step into a place, like even on that movie, she kind of helps the director who was feeling bummed out that he’s on some third-rate movie, and she kind of helps him make the best of it. And the movie does okay, for whatever, like a Sharknado-type movie that it is. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if I see as much of her starting over as much as maybe she’s crystallizing the things that maybe she lost sight of, which really matters for her, which I think is her acting, and then Johnny.

Allison:

Right. And to some extent her relationship with her kids. There’s one episode where Alexis is like, “What’s my middle name? You don’t know my middle name.” And it’s comical. And then there’s another episode that always makes me think about feedback, and reiterating your point where I think it’s Jocelyn who gives her the feedback that she’s not approachable. And so she goes to David and she says it sort of like this, and it’s hard for her to get out.

She says, “I am approachable.” And David is like, “Is that a question? That sounds like a statement.” And they have sort of a nice, sarcastic-ish, because David is David, but a nice moment where she realizes how she’s coming off, and she hadn’t known that previously. So that’s what I mean where I think it’s a little bit more subtle for her is understanding how she appears to people and how people experience her, which can be difficult for a lot of people.

Ren:

Yeah, and that brings up for me, it just reminds me, these characters I think, and maybe I don’t know if the writers were trying to do this and all of a sudden it’s becoming clear for me, but she really struck the balance of recognizing like, “This is who I want to be, and sure, I might change some of it, but I’m still going to put an inflection in my voice. I’m still going to wear my wigs. I’m still going to wear this.” And so it’s like she really honored the polarities of, “This is who I am, but I don’t have to be an asshole the whole time.”

Allison:

Exactly.

Ren:

And that’s why they restarted at that place. And I think she’s kind of cool. Some of her edges softened, and I think that made some of her other parts of her shine brighter.

Allison:

And there’s one part, too, where she goes to a conference with Roland, and I’m not remembering what the conference is. Do you remember this episode? And she’s sort of like, people actually want to talk to her again, and she’s sort of the life of the party a bit. And I think that’s a reminder for her of that she can belong in other spaces where she’s felt so out of place.

Ren:

Yeah, I was wondering if it wasn’t at the small business owner award ceremony, because the motel was getting an award, but she was present or something, stepping in. I don’t know.

Allison:

I don’t remember, something like that. Yeah.

Ren:

Yeah. I do remember a little bit Alexis, so.

Allison:

Yes. How could you forget?

Ren:

That is such a good bit. And even that actor’s story to pull ourselves out of the arc, talk about persistence, and talk about that Hollywood tale. I mean, I guess her house burned down, no money in her bank account. She was like, “This acting thing is not working. I’ve been doing it for years. It’s not happening, and I’m about to quit.” And then it’s that last moment where she gets this job and then, I mean, granted, I haven’t seen her do a lot more after this, but hey, if you strike gold with Schitt’s Creek, then so be it. So I think before we talk about Alexis, just that actor’s story is really interesting, a reminder to all of you that persistence pays. And maybe too, being okay with who you are and what you’re doing and how far you’ve come, like reveling in the journey, maybe that can help you just last enough to get your big break.

Allison:

And she’s turned into a pop culture icon from that show, talk about one-liners. And I saw an interview with her, and it may have been on Jimmy Fallon, I think, where he says to her, “Everybody knows,” and there’s so many memes and so many tweets, it’s all over pop culture of her saying, “Ew, David.” And she actually only says that in the show, I think she says it 2 times, but she always uses David’s name in a way that has that same inflection.

And so she’s forever, she is forever a pop culture icon in that respect, again, because of one-liners. And you’re right, sort of her as a human being comes full circle to who she is as a character, too, because she goes back to high school and finishes her GED and then goes to college, and then auditions for the show in the most comical way. So all of that sort of comes full circle, where they all just do this great job of building from scratch again, and reinventing yourself, and also staying who you are at the same time.

Ren:

Well, yeah, when I think maybe Alexis too, she’s one of those, I track her as one of the higher arcs, because part of her character I think was a lack of awareness of who she was. I think she was the money, she was the pretty girl being swept away on trips, even though sometimes it’s like she’s being kidnapped. But that’s how unaware she was, she would just joke about like, “Yeah, I feel like I was kidnapped by a Saudi prince or something.”

And then it’s less that she, for me, I think it’s less she was rebuilding and more like she was building. She was starting to create a foundation, and maybe that high school arc for her, and then doing that, and then getting the job. And then even being with Ted, to some extent, was sort of her doing all of that work that maybe a normal person might do in their teens and 20s. But she was so insulated from the world that she had to just not keep growing up, but just begin growing up.

Allison:

And her relationships, you see how she starts to value relationships in a different way, too. There’s a time where she bumps into some of her old friends, and I don’t remember if they’re passing through, I can’t remember what that is. And sort of her old life resurfaces, where one of the women who maybe is a business owner, I think, now I’m not remembering if it’s a branding agency or something like that, but one of the women says to her, confidentially or off to the side, “We have a job for you, and this other woman, we can’t stand her.” But they’re really nice to her at the same time. She starts to investigate, and you can see it on her face, she’s being very thoughtful about her relationships, and that’s a moment for her where she decides to take another path, and you see her start to value her relationship with, my goodness, I’m forgetting her name. Who’s the server at the restaurant that she becomes friends with? Twyla.

Ren:

Twyla.

Allison:

Twyla. Yes. And she takes Twyla out to the bars, and she starts to value her relationships in a much different way. And I think that’s a moment for her to, you’re right, consider what’s important and what shifts she needs to make or wants to make.

Ren:

Yeah. One big issue that I had with the whole Alexis thing was the storyline with Ted. I’m convinced that that guy pissed someone off. Because the way they wrote him out of the show, it just seemed like it didn’t make any sense to me.

Allison:

Oh, it made so much sense to me. But you keep going.

Ren:

No. All right, well, no, tell me what?

Allison:

Finish your sentence though, I didn’t mean —

Ren:

Were they just growing in that much of a different way? Because it seemed like they didn’t really need to break up. I know they broke up once, but then they broke up again, and I just don’t know why. But tell me more. You said it makes sense to you, I want to know.

Allison:

Well, so you had 2 people who were really coming into their own opportunities. And for Alexis … Ted was, to me, it seemed, very grounded in who he is and where he’s going with his career. And Alexis never really got the chance to be an independent human because, I mean it sounds like I’m feeling bad for people who are super wealthy, but big picture, she was never given the opportunity to grow on her own and be an independent human being, explore what she wanted to explore, dip her toes in the business waters, dip her toes in marketing and branding, and she never got that opportunity.

So that’s why I think it was a brilliant ending, because sometimes relationships end, and it’s not because one person was a jerk or did something awful. And I think that’s one of the reasons I like it so much, is that there wasn’t much that was trauma dumping or super sensationalized where, “Oh, so-and-so cheated.” Right? It’s just an indicator of sometimes things don’t work, and sometimes we have to choose ourselves. And it doesn’t mean that the other side, the partner, is right, wrong, or bad, it’s just that we’re moving in different directions.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, as you say that, and I tap back into the moment when I saw that, or tap back into what you’re saying, and I’m really resonating with it, yes, and maybe that’s part of this is her last growth step, which was to make a decision to start to mold this new being that she had been putting together alone, as opposed to then having another person there. So I think, yeah, it’s really thoughtful, and I think probably a lot of what was playing out.

Maybe I would just take exception about how quick it happened, like we never got involved in any of that narrative. There was never her reflecting on that or sharing it, it just sort of happened. But maybe that’s sort of what the show does. It doesn’t bang you over the head with stuff like that, and it kind of lets you deal and lets you enjoy it. And I think what you’re saying there is probably true about her, that now as the stories go, regardless of what, Season 6 ends, Alexis has a chance now to be the person that she might deserve to be.

Allison:

Yeah, or even wants to be with, prior to her knowing that. You hit the nail on the head already of her just exploring who she is, and without the money, without things being handed to her, without dating the Saudi prince, et cetera. And I really like that. And there’s one episode too, that I find to be so hilarious, when at the Blouse Barn, her and David pretend to be a lawyer, or Alexis specifically pretends to be a lawyer.

Do you remember that episode, where some company in Australia tries to buy the Blouse Barn name, and it’s Alexis who is like — it’s Alexis and David, but really Alexis who says, “No, I know how much this is worth.” She takes a little bit from her past to help out the owner of the Blouse Barn to get her to retire, which then she eventually gives money to David, which allows him to open the store. And it’s just like she has a good heart and you can tell that, she truly does want to help people. And while it’s probably not legal what she did, it was a really nice moment, and a hilarious moment as well.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean there’s plenty of gray areas, and I think one of the people who play as well in that gray is David. And it is interesting how, the evolution, these characters evolve, and then their decisions make an impact on them and then the world around them. And I think about David, I think about the last episode, and everyone’s leaving, but David, his life is there now. He’s got the Apothecary, he’s got his husband, and they’re going to exist.

And he and Johnny, I mean they might be my, like … he, Johnny and Stevie are probably my absolute favorite characters. And probably David just elevates everyone else so much when he’s with them, and how just dry and sharp he is, and just … he’s awesome.

Allison:

I’m just laughing at so many … there are just so many moments with David where I just want to be his … I know he’s a fictional character, but you just want to be his friend. He’s so funny. And most of the time it’s unintentional. He’s also very honest in a different way from the Rolands of the world. He’s also just a very honest, talk about personal brand again, his unique look is sort of goth-ish in a way, but also very fashion-forward.

Ren:

That’s funny.

Allison:

And he has a —

Ren:

A lot of black.

Allison:

A lot of black. He has a really solid eye for business too, where he started working at the Blouse Barn, and redid all the mannequins, put some mood lighting in there, brought in, I think there were leather ponchos or something. So outside of what you might see at the Blouse Barn. And I think he takes chances in the business world that really work for him in the long run. And one of the funniest episodes, however, is where he learns about write-offs in taxes. Do you remember that episode?

Ren:

You’re going to have to tell me more. Remind me.

Allison:

So he’s ordering a bunch of stuff for this store, and I think he has new sheets or something like that, and a new lamp in the motel. And Johnny said, “Where are you getting the money for this?” And he says, “It’s a write-off.” And Johnny said, “Who is writing it off?” And David’s like, “I don’t know, the government. I don’t know, it’s a write-off.” And they go back and forth. It’s just so funny, his learning curve too, and his awareness of the responsibility that he has to take now, where he didn’t before.

Ren:

Yeah, I am remembering that now, and getting all this brand new stuff, like, “No, it’s totally okay, the business is paying for it.” I think it’s funny to watch his evolution too, as he partners with Patrick, both in that business partner and romantic partner space. But something that sticks out for me for David is loyalty, and that’s a trait for leaders of some of the things that really works. One episode, I think, is when one of David’s ex-boyfriends comes into town, that super famous photographer or something.

Allison:

Yes, it is.

Ren:

And he’s got beef or dirt on Moira or something, and they kind of leave it, the storyline like, “David’s choosing the photographer over his mom.” And then at the end, we realize like, “Oh, he got the SD card from the photographer.” And he’s actually always holding it down for his family, even if he benefited from the exchange, albeit slightly. And it just seems like, again, these people kind of all grounded around a recognition. And once they got out of their own way, they were able to be maybe closer to the people they wanted to be. I think David’s a really good example of that.

Allison:

Definitely. And getting closer to the people they wanted to be close to was something that’s top of mind for me, too. And we’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about the “fold in the cheese” episode.

Ren:

That is just, I loved … What a good motherly and son moment, too. “What does it mean, fold in the cheese?”

Allison:

“You fold it in.”

Ren:

“You say fold it one more time.” Yeah.

Allison:

It’s so funny. But a bigger lesson too, where they’re exploring, “Maybe we should have family meals together,” and they’re sitting around the table in the motel like, “Well, who’s going to cook?” and Moira says, “Well, I will. I’m the mother.” I’m paraphrasing. And they all sort of look at each other like, “Oh, no. She cannot cook. What are we going to do?” Her and David attempt to cook together, and it’s a slight disaster, again, in the most comical way. But it is this sort of bonding moment for them where they spend time together, where they just hadn’t spent time together as a family. So I think there’s such a build — subtle, and sometimes overt — in that show of how important relationships are at the end of the day.

Ren:

Yeah. And maybe that is some of … it’s just the relationship-first messaging, I think. And we talk it too, in I think our newest bit of work, human-centered leadership, and some of our frameworks around that remind us that we’re people first and foremost, and we work with a whole bunch of other people. And if we can just recognize that, versus pretending like we’re not, it might unlock doors for us. And I think that’s probably something that Johnny did the most, and I think he reminds me of every winner who needs to reinvent and go back to what makes them unique.

Johnny’s this hard-working video store guy. And you see that when he’s in the restaurant and Twyla’s busy, and he just starts to help. And he starts waiting tables, he starts bussing tables, he just starts running the reps. I mean, granted, he was looking for work during that part of his arc, but he’s just that, even as rich as he got, even as wealthy as he got, he was also maybe this kind of grounded, “I’m a hard-working guy. This stuff didn’t happen by accident.” And he reminds us all that real excellence doesn’t happen by accident. And I think he gets to rebuild himself in the image that he wants, which is that hard-working self.

Allison:

Yeah, and he does focus, as well, on his relationships, too. And even though, for the most part, it’s him and Stevie eventually running that motel, he really does focus on her and her well-being, and ensuring she gets days off, because she was the only person running that motel and never got days off.

And I remember one episode where he is trying to give her some sort of staff reward, if you will, and he buys her a giant case of makeup, and it’s hilarious. But you think about his intentions are to recognize the hard work of others, and he’s everything that you said, he’s also very kind and he’s very passionate about what he does. He shows up in a suit and tie, whether he’s changing the sheets, or working at the front desk, or taking pictures for the brand with Stevie outside.

Do you remember when he creates business cards? And I think instead of saying Twitter, he said, “Find us on the tweeters,” or something like that. It’s just so very sweet. He’s very engaged in what he does, and his business knowledge is so complete that it allows him to spend time on his relationships.

Ren:

And yet, too, I think what he’s a great reminder of, is that it’s easy to lose sight of those things. The reason they got into this in the first place is because their business manager did some nefarious things with their monies. And so, he’s a reminder that those muscles, if not worked out, can atrophy. And, which is the fun thing about muscle memory though, I think why he could take to it so quickly or why he was so good at it, was because once we learn to do something and we don’t do it in a while, we actually get back to it pretty quickly.

There’s something about the learned pathways, the familiar-tread walkways, where we get back into that thing and it can warm us back up, it can get us back to where we were. And so if you’re listening, and you’ve ever led or been led in a certain way, or want to go back to that place but it’s been a while, and you’re like, “Oh God, do I have to start over?” Not actually, you’re not starting from the same place you started from in the beginning.

You’ve done some work. Now granted, maybe the weeds have grown on the path and you have to rework some of it, but it’s still there. And so I think Johnny was able to kind of tap into his holistic wisdom about business, about life, about family, and leverage that again, to keep his family together. And that’s, too, just another through line for everyone, is that they’re all just so committed to one another. And he was the reason that the family was together for a while. And I think the reason that Schitt’s Creek became what it was is a lot, in part, because of Johnny Rose.

Allison:

Yes. And perhaps one of maybe the most relevant quotes from Johnny for what we do and what we talk about is this, and maybe this will help us round out the episode a bit. He says this to, I believe he’s saying this to maybe Alexis, actually. He says, “Let me explain something about business to you. It’s a dance, and sometimes you lead and sometimes you follow.” And I think that’s really relevant to what we do, where Alexis is helping with the brand side of things, and Stevie has the historical knowledge and the tradition and the knowledge of the community. And he understands that you have to bring the best people to the plate to allow for a business to run smoothly and let their talents shine, and let them lead in their area of expertise.

Ren:

Yeah. And again, the kind of leader that it takes, recognizing that your job is not to be the very best person at all of the things. Your job is to get the very best people in the room to do all of the things. And again, the through line for me, and maybe a big through line for all of these leaders in the show is, what does it look like to have the character to withstand the shoulds, the oughts, and the coulds? Like, “You’re the boss, you should be making the shots. You’re the manager, you should be doing this. You did all that work, you should be getting credit.”

It’s almost like Truman says, which is ironic, apparently with his beef with Oppenheimer, but, “It’s amazing what we can do when no one gets the credit, or when no one cares who gets the credit.” And I think there’s something about cultivating that inside of you and recognizing that. And when we talk about the social process of leadership at CCL, I think it’s rooted in the idea that the best leaders let leadership emerge in and around the process. And the best leaders aren’t always the one who demand that they be recognized or told or have the role of the leader, but the person who lets their small town and the awesome people in that small town rise, and do what they do best.

Allison:

One thing that we can take away from the show that is emergent with all of the characters is that they allow for the talents and the strengths of others to shine through, and really nourish not only the Rosebud Motel, but the community itself. And yes, there are some difficult conversations that happen along the way, but it all is with the intention of developing, again, not only the motel as a business, but the greater community.

Ren:

Yeah. And so maybe just one thing to buoy onto that, it’s like assume positive intent when you’re in a position. And then sometimes when you’re not or when it’s hard, it pays off the most to assume positive intent. And I think a lot of these people at their best were able to do that, and gave us a fun time while doing it.

Allison:

Absolutely. Well, this was a fun episode to record, Ren, and I’m sure there’s a lot more we could talk about. So to our listeners, if you haven’t seen the show, highly recommend. It is comical.

Ren, you alluded to this at the beginning, but it took me the first couple of episodes to really get into it. Give it time. If you feel that way, just give it a couple of episodes.

Ren:

Yeah. You’re going to love it.

Allison:

I promise it is so hilarious, heartwarming, and has some great leadership lessons along the way. So thanks for the conversation, Ren.

To our listeners, you can find all of our show notes and podcast episodes on ccl.org. Find us on LinkedIn, find us on Instagram too. Let us know, if you were going to be managed by somebody in Schitt’s Creek, who would you want to have as your leader?

And we will look forward to tuning in with you all next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. Thanks Allison, see you next time.

Find Allison on TikTok.