Lead With That: What the Evolution of the Job Market Can Teach Us About the Importance of Constructive Conversations

Interview Transcript

INTRO: 

Welcome back to CCLs podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Picture this: you’re in a company where layoffs are looming, the air is tense, uncertainty hangs like a cloud, and morale takes a nosedive. It’s not just a numbers game, it’s the holidays, it’s about livelihoods, career trajectories, families, and the emotional rollercoaster for everyone involved. But let’s not forget the flip side; retention and attrition. Keeping talent engaged and motivated in 2023. How the hell do we do that? I mean, that’s the holy grail for any business. And when people start leaving for whatever reason, it’s a wake-up call.

But what if they don’t leave? As recent conversations in corporate America are to believe the new headache for bosses is employees aren’t quitting. No worries though if you work at Spotify, they fixed that problem for you. Yet again, Spotify has released more workers from their workforce this time, laying off 17% or cuts that affect roughly 1500 people. It seems like employees can’t win. First we told you that people were moving jobs too frequently, then people were just quietly quitting, then people were quietly leaving. Now, we’re being told people aren’t leaving their jobs enough or people are just being loudly fired.

Today we explore all of those things that a bit more and maybe hopefully give you something to take with you during these trying times. Welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, when’s the last time you were fired?

Allison:

Oh. Well, I would call this a mutual parting, which was … I think I was 23 or around there. And I was living in a ski town, and I was working 2 or 3 jobs, as a lot of people do in ski towns to be able to afford it. I was working at a wine shop, and was not very engaged. I’ll never forget my boss had a conversation with me, which almost was like a, “Coaching out” of a conversation, but it was the right thing, and I was looking for other work at the time so it wasn’t a firing like a layoff, but it was a mutual parting. What about you?

Ren:

Probably mine was just a straight-up firing, but probably in my early 20s too, at a restaurant. I had made my way through the restaurant industry being a bouncer and moving all the way to a server in this steakhouse. We did service teams, so it was a front and a back server. I remember someone telling me once, “Ren, you’re going to be a great back server.” As a young man with a chip on my shoulder, I was like, “Who the hell do you think I am? I’m going to be the best front server there is.” And so, that was the beginning of the end for me. I probably ruffled some feathers, tried too hard, didn’t do enough listening. And at one point I had talked like, “I’m never going back to being a busboy.” We didn’t call them busboy, but that’s what they were.

And so I got to a point where they’re like, “Ren, we’re going to wheel you back to bus. I think we may have jumped tried too far.” And so I was like, “Let’s just be real, man. You’re getting rid of me.” And they’re like, “Yeah.”

Allison:

Did you say that?

Ren:

Yeah. I said, and it’s something that I think about today, because I wonder if he was trying to cover for, to not pay the employee insurance or whatever, or, I can’t even think of that word. I’m embarrassing myself. Unemployment. Right?

Allison:

Unemployment.

Ren:

And so that was probably my experience. But I wonder, I think I have an idea. You said something like coaching out, and I think I might have an idea of what that looks like or feels like, but what does coaching out of the role mean? Or tell me?

Allison:

Well, this was a long time ago, so let me try to remember. We sat down, and I remember walking in and felt, I could sense something was up. I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced that; you walk into work or in your personal life and you can tell something’s up?

Ren:

Oh yeah.

Allison:

So, I knew something was up and I clocked in and put my things in the back and my boss said, “Can we chat?” And I said, “Sure.” Which sort of solidified something up being up. And she sat me down and she said something along the lines of like, “Are you happy here? I’m sensing that maybe you’re not.” And I actually to this day don’t know how she knew that. I was 23, maybe I was obvious, but I didn’t think that I was coming to work, I didn’t do anything specific necessarily. But full transparency, I didn’t like that job. I didn’t like it.

And I don’t remember what I said. And I was not a savvy 23-year-old. I think I might have asked her, “Why do you ask?” Or something like that. And again, I don’t remember what she said, but we had a conversation about my goals, what my goals in my career were. And if wine was in my future, which it was a not, I just needed a job, was what happened. And that was not. And the environment was, I remember some of the people I worked with wanted to be sommeliers, and they were very passionate about wine. I was not, I was just clocking in, and selling the wine, and leaving, and I did not want to grow. I didn’t want to, I wanted a paycheck. So she asked me about my career goals and we were not aligned. And she’s like, “Do you think perhaps you’d be happier somewhere else?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “I’ll give you a good reference and thanks so much for your time here.” I said, “Great, thanks.”

Ren:

Well, that’s such an interesting frame and I’ve heard, and I’ve met people in my life too, who are able to recognize that certain assets or resources on their team need to be transitioned. And with the right kind of coaching, they can walk themselves out. You can realize that in that spirit of partnership that maybe this thing isn’t happening. And yes, that dreadful, “Hey, we need to talk” is definitely that thing you got to look out for. So I think all of us can empathize with that. I wonder if I was in your seat and she said, “Is wine in your future?” I’d be like, “Look, every night.” But yeah, so it’s interesting and we talk a lot about, I think, value proposition and working with employees. And so listeners, some of the things that we’ll discuss today might swirl around some of those topics.

But I think for our purposes, Allison, I’d love to focus maybe on 2 areas in this conversation of attrition, and retention, and layoffs, and keeping people, and one of them was that Wall Street Journal article that said, “The new headache for bosses, people aren’t quitting enough.” And then almost right away then the Spotify announcement comes out and we can even read the CEO layoff memo. And so I’d love to just explore those ideas. We hear in a moment people aren’t quitting, and then the next moment we say, “Well, CEOs are going to solve that problem for us.” And so, starting first with that, people aren’t quitting enough. And I know we were both kind of frustrated with this, “What do you mean?” And so I’d love to hear your read, especially the community watches to say corporate American workers who responded to that idea. What’s your read on that article in the whole bit?

Allison:

Well, the first time that I saw that, and you and I messaged back and forth about it, there were 2 things that were top of mind to me. One was, employees cannot win. They’re quiet quitting, they’re not quitting, they are quitting, the Great Resignation, they can’t win, right? So what would you like employees to do? And the second part of that was something we probably don’t need to get into too heavily, but this notion of media literacy and how trends will spread quickly. Understanding that just because an article has a headline, and has some information that they might be seeing from companies does not mean that it’s happening at your company. And it’s something that I see and maybe you do too, Ren a lot with the people that we work with, our clients, conversations I even have with friends, even neighbors sometimes, “Oh, I hear that people are lazy, they’re not wanting to do…” And where are you hearing that? Right? So it’s very important to have a certain level of media literacy and understanding objectively what is happening at your workplace, or on your team before you come to work with that frame in mind because it might not be true for you.

Ren:

Yeah, I mean, Kim Kardashian told me that people just don’t know how to work. And so, if only we had Kim’s work ethic, I feel like I’d be better off.

Allison:

Right.

Ren:

I think when we start to explore this impossible position that people are in and we’re thinking about how folks can’t win and where we need to go from a company standpoint, I’m really feeling a little lost. And I think part of my feeling lost goes to some of what you said around this literacy idea, that maybe these big trends, these meta trends that we’re hearing aren’t trends but representations of tiny pockets of conversation. And not only do we need to have literacy when we’re reading these media blurbs, but then we need to be understanding the language that’s happening in our own organization.

Allison:

That’s it.

Ren:

And I immediately, when I start to see this, I wanted to ask questions of our own leadership around, “Well, what are our retention strategies? How are we managing attrition?” Especially in a year where so many companies are back on the upswing, but there’s still that looming and pending recession. And so, if I’m a leader and I’m hearing that people aren’t quitting enough and in fact I work at an organization that tells me, “Hey, we have mandatory reduction of staff every year to keep up with industry benchmarks of people quitting.” It’s like I feel like not only can employees not win, but employers are pretty stuck between a rock and a hard place, especially a manager who’s not calling the shots, but is the one releasing people.

Allison:

Yeah, it’s complex and it’s something that you and I’ve probably talked about in previous episodes, it got me thinking about a term that we used at CCL that’s not holistically used at CCL of course, but it’s VUCA, V-U-C-A, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And right now we’re certainly in a VUCA environment both at the workplace and external of that. That’s I would say been a trend for a couple of years. And that’s very real, that things are uncertain. Work environments feel uncertain. Economics can feel uncertain at times. And so, it’s inevitable that we’ll have to maybe encounter some bad news at the workplace. And as a manager, you might have to deliver some bad news. And back to what you said a few moments ago too, is that understanding at the leadership level, what your plans are for that is really important. But also balancing that with an inability to predict, at the grand scheme of things, it’s pretty hard to predict what’s going to happen for a company economically next year based off of global economics.

And one thing that I found interesting about Spotify, I’m jumping a little bit here, and we can come back to whichever topics feel most relevant, but Spotify’s memo went public, their memo on laying people off. And what I found interesting, and in some ways I really respected that he took a couple of paragraphs to explain, “Yes, we’ve had some high profits in 2021 and 2022, and here’s why we’re making this decision now.” I think that’s one thing that companies miss a lot when they have mass layoffs is that people will see this company is profiting. Why in the world are we having layoffs, and is it about greed? Is it about something else? They don’t know., And so I appreciated that he took a paragraph or 2 to explain the economics behind it. I think that goes missing a lot.

Ren:

Yeah. And then needing, like you said earlier, media literacy. I double clicked on some of those things trying to find out because I guess this quarter they turned a profit, so did Spotify. But Spotify this year has not made money, and like many service and streaming things, they have not made money their whole lifetime and they’re continuing to try to… Their revenue streams don’t always look positive, but they’ve got this huge brand, so people are like, “You just made millions of dollars this quarter, yet you’re releasing us. Someone help me understand.”

What I will say though, that I think there was something to the CEO’s commentary about giving us some perspective, but from my money, I wish I would’ve seen more kinds of ownership of decision-making. I think a lot of times, people in organizations as they would, are left to pay for the mistakes of the highest reaches of leadership. And when I think about the success of 2020 and 2021 for Spotify, there seemed to be this urgency, like, “The business is doing, good rates are down, we have a desire and a need to increase our work span.” And then in between now and then, there was some business decisions made by Spotify, one of which is doubling down on private or premier podcasts, which is to say exclusive podcasts. Podcasts you can only find on Spotify. And that was one of their plans, and devoting money into that didn’t really pay off.

And now it’s kind of like, “Hey, even I have some of the quote right here from the CEO, to align Spotify with our future goals and ensure we are right sized for the challenges ahead, I’ve made the difficult decision to reduce our total head count by 17%.” And he was talking about how because the cost structure is still too big. And there wasn’t anything, “Hey man, I made a bad decision. We made some bad business bets and now we’ve got to let you go.” Because it’s not like we’re running out of money. It’s like, “We put money in the wrong spaces. So now as he said, to be blunt, many smart, talented and hardworking people will be departing us.” And so I don’t know if I’m so much, I don’t feel as good about some of his messaging, maybe. Reactions?

Allison:

Well, yes, a few. Let me just go back in the future and remind you, if you’ll remember, do you remember BetterUp’s layoffs in 2021 where the CEO held a Zoom call and in the matter of 3 minutes, 3 minutes was the Zoom call, saying, “You’re part of the unfortunate group that’s being laid off effective immediately.” And it was pretty abrupt, lacking in any adequate compassion you might say. And so that would be an example of what not to do. And I’m curious from your perspective, what would an adequate ownership sound like from a CEO? What would’ve made you happy in the Spotify that you just mentioned? You said it didn’t feel like there was ownership.

Ren:

“It’s not just that the cost structure is still too big. We as leadership have failed to get the cross structure to a way where we can keep your jobs.”

Allison:

Got it.

Ren:

Now granted, I mean, Ren, it’s easy for you to say that to have someone sacrifice themselves on the altar of corporate America because like a CEO does that the board looks at it and they’re like, “Well, we can’t show weakness. You’re out of here.” And then all of a sudden we’re like ChatGPT, you got CEOs in 3 days. And so there’s this frantic reaction. So I understand that it’s not that easy, but I think if you’re a listener out there, especially a manager who’s in a rock and a hard place who has to let someone go, even though you didn’t have any part in it, I think what I would’ve loved leadership to do is recognize that, “You had no part in this, and this is a failure of the business, not a failure of you, it’s a failure of some decision-making.” And ownership in, “We needed to tell you earlier than through this memo, we needed to prime people for this eventual change.”

But I think it comes down to something that we always talk about, just a transparency, honesty, vulnerability. Leaders are holding cards so close to the vest and then all of a sudden it’s like, “Guess what? You’re cut. And why are you cut? Well, we couldn’t fix it, but it’s not like we, it’s just like the cost structure is still too big. We don’t know how it’s still too big, but it’s too big.” And so, I guess I’d probably want a little bit more of that leadership courage to say, “That’s on us.”

Allison:

Yeah, I think what is interesting that you and I are highlighting right now is that you can’t please everyone, because that to me personally, I don’t know that I would need that as much, as I would want to know more about financials. From what I know, granted, I might be lacking information because I might not be the CFO, I might not be on the finance team, but from where I sit, I see that we’re doing quite well. And maybe, I don’t know if this is true, but just maybe there hasn’t been that communication around financials being not great this year, for example. I would want to know why is this happening if we’re doing okay financially on paper, right?

But again, I think it’s really hard and I don’t think that CEOs can win and don’t want to downplay the impact this has on employees because those people who get laid off. A, might be losing a job they really like B, they’re losing their access and their compensation. Some of them might be losing their health insurance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? And again, another thing that I liked that Spotify did was cover all of those bases outright. It’s towards the end of the article, I don’t know if you saw that, but they lay that out outright because that’s where my brain would go immediately is like, “Okay, I am going to have to find other work. I’m not going to have a paycheck for. How long am I getting severance? What’s health insurance going to look like?” I’m going to be thinking about how to take care of myself and my family. So that’s where my brain would go immediately and everybody’s different.

And I could also almost guarantee, I do not know this for fact, but I could almost guarantee you that they had either a PR firm help write that, or somebody in marketing or somebody who’s savvy about that kind of messaging, I would assume, write that memo.

Ren:

And I’m inclined to agree with you. I don’t know much about the Spotify CEO’s messaging capabilities, but typically, yes, some firm carries this and tries to do it. But it sounds like you were satisfied with that towards the end of The Layoff Memo as it’s being infamously called, is that there was some recognition and commentary about how Spotify will support those who are being let go. And that’s not just a cold break. And so, that’s something worth kudos.

Allison:

I don’t know. Kudos might be too big of a word.

Ren:

I’m not trying to trap you.

Allison:

I think it would ease my anxiety if I just put myself in that position. If I got a memo, the first communication about a layoff was a memo and not a conversation, again, we can get into this if we need to, but I understand why that happens too. But if I got a memo, I would have anxiety of not knowing, am I going to lose my job? Me being me, I will probably think the worst because that’s who I am. And I would start planning, “Okay, well I’m going to have to look for a new job. What if?” The what ifs would start to come. And I think that’s very natural and that was covered for me. So that would ease me a little bit. That would ease me a little bit. If I am part of this group, here are the things that will be provided for me which might buy me some time as I look for another job.

Ren:

And those what ifs, I think is what I’m trying to get at. And I’m reminded of our CCL adage, “Slow down in the power up, time spent on the front end is time saved on the back end.” And you and I we’re in this industry of learning and development and corporate America, and we are familiar with engagement surveys. And if you’ve never taken an engagement survey, it’s when your organization tells you that they care about you and then makes you do a survey every 2 years to see how much you’re being engaged. And we do ones, all of our partner organizations, most of them do them. And there’s the interesting metric in engagement surveys, which is the turnover metric.

Allison:

Isn’t it?

Ren:

Which is that there is an expected amount of turnover, in fact an encouraged amount of turnover. Healthy organizations have a certain amount of turnover. And so you would think to yourself, “Wait a minute, you’re telling me, Ren, that when organizations lose people, that’s good?” And what I’m telling you is that the industry would suggest that there is a healthy amount of turnover to make room for new talent, to make room for talent to evolve, and so on and so forth. So I wonder, would it be helpful if when I was brought into an organization and after a certain amount of time I was informed of the what if, that, “At our organization we anticipate X percent of turnover. And if we don’t get that turnover, guess what?” I guess, maybe I want to hear the what ifs-

Allison:

Do you?

Ren:

Earlier so I can be prepared to know. Well, wouldn’t you want to know that, “Hey, by the way, we turnover 10% of our workforce every year.” I don’t want to be surprised when I find out that, oh, I could be at risk that 10%, but you don’t want to hear that. Is that what I’m hearing?

Allison:

No, because well, I know that already, probably based off my job and my education. I know that. I do not need to be reminded of that. That feels, so again, we’re highlighting differences how hard it is to please everyone. Depending on the leader, that sounds like a threat to me.

Ren:

Like, depending on who’s delivering the message? 

Allison:

Yes. And how it’s delivered, like, “Just so you know, if X, Y, Z doesn’t happen by…” Maybe, but maybe not.

Ren:

It wouldn’t be individualized. It might be in the State of the Union or whatever that is. We have so many standing meetings and if layoffs are part of our DNA, rather, if an organization is expecting to honor those metrics, to have a healthy… Our favorite thing, people, I’m air quoting to do, “Healthy turnover,” I know I’ve just recently heard of massive organizations saying, “This is how we roll. We’ve got to make space for all of these new mergers, and acquisitions and new employees. It’s just policy.” And I guess I would want to know if an organization is going to make staffing decisions based off of that, then that would be really great to know upfront.

Allison:

Well, I think it also plays into that conversation that people have quite a bit that, you and I have already talked about this to some extent, a company loyalty. Why are you loyal to an employee when they’re not necessarily loyal to you? By the way, those are not my words, those are words that I hear out there in the ethers. Right? And the interwebs and such. I think it’s a good idea holistically, regardless of the position you are in at your workplace to understand objectively what a workplace is, objectively first, and then you decide how you react to it.

But to your point, Ren businesses plan for people leaving and it’s not the only thing that they rely on to keep their costs in check, but it is one of them. And so again, it’s just a good idea to know these things holistically. You also brought up engagement surveys. By the way, high engagement does not mean high productivity. It might, but that doesn’t mean that necessarily. So I caution leaders from relying too heavily on that, which is not what you said; I just want to make sure that is said. Because high engagement only means high engagement. That’s what that means. It does not mean that your financials are going to all of a sudden explode positively. It does not mean high success. It does not mean high productivity. It might, but it’s a bad idea to rely only on that to assess your organization.

Ren:

Yeah, I’d be wary of building causal connections. However, I might argue that there’s probably some strong correlations between higher engagement and higher organizational success. I don’t have the data, that would be conjecture. You’re shrugging, so maybe we’re in the same boat there maybe.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

But I think something that’s important to what you’re saying is all of these are just points of data, multiple points of data, and you’ve got to collect all these bits of information to make sense. And I think as we’ve alluded, you can’t please everyone. You can’t be all things to all people. There’s never a world where 17% of the organization is gone and everyone’s going to be happy about how it happened. Unless the CEO is like, “Guess what I’m doing? I’m not taking a salary this year to make sure 1500 people can.” Now that would be fun and interesting, but I mean, what’s the realism of that when I have 4 kids who go to an Ivy League school, I could pay for it. Now I’m underwater because I’m living the American dream, which is to say, outside of my means. And so I think-

Allison:

But pause for a moment. Can I pause you for a moment?

Ren:

Okay, let’s do it. Yeah.

Allison:

So, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m simply just asking, is that sustainable though? Let’s say the CEO doesn’t take a salary and that saves a year. Then what?

Ren:

Then we, I as a CEO, I am really committed for us to right-size the cost structure by next year.

Allison:

But what if the economic environment does not allow for that?

Ren:

Then you release your layoff memo, and you say, “Everyone, I tried. I tried. Last year I didn’t take a salary, I kept you off for one more year. And I told the entire organization, we need to fix this. Not for music, not for industry, but for the people that work here at this organization.” And then you say, “Look, I didn’t do it.” And so maybe everyone’s so enamored by your sacrifice that they keep you on a CEO for another year or maybe you lose your job and 17% get cut anyway, so I hear you. I’m not saying anything in perpetuity or forever, but what a weird world where someone says, “Sorry, I failed with the strategy I’m paid millions of dollars to execute. So sorry, everyone, you’re out.” I could see that a lot of people would read between the lines and say, “I had nothing to do with this decision making, but I’m paying the bill.”

Allison:

Yep, absolutely. I agree with you. And again, that’s why part of me really encourages people to look at their workplace from an objective perspective. It’s a workplace, it’s part of the economy, it’s part of driving the economy. It’s in a lot of ways, not always, but in a lot of ways is completely impersonal and transactional. At the end of the day, if this kind of stuff happens to a business, they have to find ways, whether it’s what you said with the CEO, there are a lot of different ways that companies navigate this kind of stuff, but, “We didn’t plan to lose money. The economy’s suffering.” Whatever the cause is, you will be looked at as an employee objectively you will be. So it’s a good idea to also look at your business, not in always. Again, I just want to clarify because you and I think could probably agree that you and I put a lot of heart and soul into our jobs, and a lot of people that we work with do. I’m not going to stop doing that just because my business is objectively a business, but I also know not to be too attached to that, and realistic.

Ren:

Yeah, I love that. I often, I tell the kids this all the time, it’s like, “Don’t let other people’s behavior change the person you want to be.” And so I think we talked about too, in the realm of quiet, quitting, I think the biggest solve for that is cultivating pride in yourself and your own work. And so, I refuse to perform lower because the environment says you should perform lower. So I think we agree with that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I think though you can only really make that decision if you are coming into the circle, eyes wide open. And it’s interesting, as I love to do, I just cite movies and I just watched the new Netflix movie called The Killer, Michael Fassbender, and I think the guy who did the movie Se7en, I don’t know, super weird, lyrical kind of slow burn, but there’s a scene where Michael Fassbender and Tilda Swinton are talking at the end and it’s 2 hitpeople… (You see how inclusive I am?) …2 hitpeople talking about this and she’s reflecting on, “I know I deal in this business and I prepared myself for this moment. And no matter how many millions of times I’ve thought about it,” she’s like, “I’m surprised that I’m not ready.”

And it’s interesting, I think of CCLers, I think of people put their heart and soul into the work, who care about the people they work for, work with the people that we get to work for, and then we get hit with like, “Hey, the business,” we did, a lot of us had to experienced it during COVID where we had that massive reduction in force and it was just like, “Uh, me? This could happen to me, but I thought we were different.” Or no matter how many times I prepared myself, I didn’t think it was going to be me.

And I guess maybe that’s as we start to shift our attention to what people can do about this, whether you’re leading it or part of it’s how can you steel yourself for the eventuality? I love what you said there earlier; the business will eventually look at you objectively. They’re going to have to, regardless of how you’re not a number, the business is numbers. And at one point you’re going to be part of that calculation, so just recognize that as part of the data, I can give my heart and soul to CCL, and I am a number in the system and I don’t resent the system for it. I know it.

Allison:

Yeah, I mean, we talk a lot at CCL in different ways than you and I are talking today about navigating the system that you’re in and the system that we are in right now. Again, objectively it will be business first, and businesses have to do certain things to exist as businesses. So again, I don’t want to reiterate what you’ve already said and what I’ve already said, but I’m going to anyway. Is to broaden your knowledge as much as possible. I know that’s easier said than done for some of us, but be able to understand the components of business, and navigate the system that you are in the best ways that you can. Do your job, do it well, fulfill your commitments, and also understand what’s happening in the environment, in the economy, at your own workplace as best as you can. Sometimes that information’s not going to be available to you at your own workplace, but this also takes me back to media literacy and clickbait because this is part of it too. Understand when you’re looking at clickbait as well, which is maybe a whole other podcast, because that can create levels of anxiety that might not be real for your organization. If it’s an opinion piece, that means it’s an opinion piece.

Ren:

Right.

Allison:

Right. So just know that. And a headline that says employees aren’t quitting and it’s bloating the infrastructure for companies, that’s probably not true for the majority of companies. It might be for some, but that’s top of mind for me too.

Ren:

Well, as we head into the political cycle, misinformation is going to be a great opportunity for us to discuss, and continue to navigate what information is there, and what information is representative and real, and what information is there for conversation, which I think all of it needs to be had. And then 2, I think as the people manager, part of what you’ve got to do is be prepared for people to say, “I hear people aren’t firing,” or “Spotify just laid off this,” or, “The recession is still looming,” or how many months have I been hearing about the looming recession? It’s like all these things that someone walks into your office and says, “What does this mean for me?” So not only that, you, I think as a leader, as someone who’s creating buy-in cultivating motivation, create that environment for space to explore those things and boost your own literacy. And if you haven’t read the article, be like, “Oh, let me take a look at that thing.” And then maybe you’ll be able to synthesize a takeaway where it’s like it’s not all doom and oblivion. And maybe it’s just Cutter’s point of view of, “I work for a news agency and I got to build some copy here.”

Allison:

Right. Exactly. They have jobs too, right? They have jobs too. And I think too, your point too, if you’re a leader really, or even a person who’s not in a traditional leadership position, you could still be a leader. It’s inevitable that you probably will have to have a hard conversation at some point, whether that’s with a client, a customer, a colleague, if you’re a manager, with people that you manage, it might not be to the level of mass layoffs, it might not be that type of hard conversation, but developing the skill of having tough conversations will help you to be more effective, not only in these volatile in certain times that we’re in, but generally speaking, it’s going to help you be more effective and have more of a positive impact when things are difficult. And I think if I could give listeners one takeaway on that note, it would be to practice being direct with respect and empathy. So a reminder that, “Direct” does not mean cold necessarily. “Direct” means clear. And having the right levels of empathy and compassion. If you have to deliver bad news, you might practice either in your head, write it down, share it with a friend. You might practice it first, if this is not a skill that comes easily to you.

Ren:

And I love the practice and I love the repetition, and I love the note that you’re saying around just the social process of leadership. More often than not, the manager has to deliver the hard news, but then it’s all the people around that person that have to carry the weight of that decision. Your coworker who was just let go, and your survivor’s guilt as it were, or dealing with just that tension, and pain, and having to help navigate those difficult conversations. I think all you and I would mind too, like a manager or someone who’s actively engaged in the social process of leadership, something else you said, Allison, was, “Often, this stuff isn’t personal, even though it feels like the most personal thing that they’re ever going to experience.” But to that end, people are going to be going through a lot of emotions. And sometimes I find my job as a coworker, or even a boss is to be a sounding board for them. And my best space, try to seek some understanding or just listen, because those things are never going to be easy, especially when you find out like, “Hey, Merry Christmas. Also, you’re all gone.” And I know Christmas is a little centrist, but still, what an interesting message.

Allison:

Right? Happy holidays.

Ren:

Yeah. As a friend, how do you help there, you have too.

Allison:

Yeah, and I think I like what you just said too, because you’re right, these decisions don’t exist in a vacuum. Even if there’s a layoff at your company and you were not part of that layoff, there will still be a trickle down and there will still be an impact to those who are still at the organization.

And so with that, I’d love to direct our listeners to either LinkedIn or CCL’s website, rather than me spending another 20 minutes talking about it, because I know we’re out of time. But there are 4 steps, high level, to having those better conversations when there might be some difficulty happening at your workplace, or there’s trickle down from a layoff or just tough decisions that happen at a company. And the first one is what you just said, Ren, which is listening, and listening from a place of understanding, asking powerful questions. Maybe if it’s appropriate, offering some challenge to people’s ways of thinking or supporting them. And to your earlier point, which is establishing accountability and next steps. And those 4 tokens come from CCL’s Better Conversations Every Day, which you can find a lot of information on our website about. So I just think it’s a helpful place for people to look rather than us spending another 30 minutes talking about it, which I would love to.

Ren:

Yeah, that model is really important to me, because I find it so applicable.

And if you heard Allison talk about, what do you mean challenge their thinking, sometimes someone loses a job and they think that’s it for them. There’s nothing left for them. And that’s maybe the thinking that you can do in a challenging and supportive way. Be like, “Are you sure? Because you’re more than this work and you’ve likely got a lot to contribute.” And so, I think those are really great behaviors to build and work toward.

And maybe too, from my last one, it’s just prepare yourself and without any malice or judgment or condemnation on yourself or the organization. But when times are good, it’s easy to be complacent. And then when times are bad, it’s easy to be reactive. And I think that there’s some really intentional opportunities for you when times are good, be proactive. Don’t find yourself caught in that delusion that you thought it was always going to be this way. And when times are bad, because you’ve been proactive, what can it look like for you to not be complacent and rest on your laurels, but continue to build your own future? I can’t encourage people enough to remind yourself that your agency, your ability to take control of some of your own decisions might just be the only thing that can keep you grounded and feeling empowered in an environment that, as you said, is absolutely volatile, and uncertain, and chaotic, and ambiguous and sometimes full of anarchy.

And so, all you can do is ground yourself in your actions. And maybe too, I said it earlier, and that’s as I’m wandering to it, just don’t let anyone else change who you want to be. What’s your best self? And try to achieve that, regardless of the things around you. And I think that you might feel a little bit more empowered and not so lost by these things.

Allison:

Yes, that’s a great tip. And it comes back to what we say at CCL a lot, which is lead yourself first and stay grounded in who you are first. So I think that might be a good place for us to stop for today. And Ren, I look forward to seeing you in the new year. It’s going to be here before we know it. I will resist the temptation to be cliche. I’ll resist it for now. And let our listeners know, thanks for tuning in. You can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. And a special thank you as always to the CCL team who works behind the scenes in getting our podcasts up and running, and we will look forward to tuning in with y’all in the new year. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. See you next time. You can find Allison on TikTok.